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The Mockers • View topic - Lives System and Inventory Overhaul

Lives System and Inventory Overhaul

Thievery ProMod discussion, visible to all but only approved posters may contribute.

Lives System and Inventory Overhaul

Postby shuggy » Mon Dec 20, 2010 5:46 pm

Lives System
Spheres of Contention: Rushing, DeathMatch

The Problems:
Players receive an uneven distribution of lives.

Careless rushing is encouraged, dying early means you'll receive another life, whereas players who do not will often only get 1. This ties in with close spawns, powerful speed, and the 'major objective' systems on many maps.

Deathmatching is made easier when there is a huge pool of thief lives.

Playing in 2v2 / 3v3 games gives thieves a significant life advantage.

Limiting public players to one life is not fun for them.

Giving two lives per player unconditionally can be very overpowered on most maps.

The Goal:
Give players the potential for more than one life using a system that doesn't reward carelessness, won't overpower guards easily, and is equitable.


Our Proposal:

Give thieves a purchasable item that grants a second life (obviously, only available on their first spawn). With six loadout slots total, having first/second life loadouts won't be an issue.

Given a new starting loot of 900, a second life would cost around 300 loot. It could also potentially see a thief start with less loot on their second spawn, giving either one life with 900 loot or two lives with 600 loot apiece. This gives thieves more options - either a blockbuster single life, or two lives with reduced effectiveness on both. This further ties in with loadout system changes in the next post.
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Postby shuggy » Mon Dec 20, 2010 6:06 pm

Inventory System
Spheres of Contention: Escalation, Stealth, Tactical

The Problems:
All Thief loadouts are essentially the same four power items: invis, speed, flash, and crack. Utility items are after-thoughts to use the rest of the loot on. Without power items, most thieves are sitting ducks, creating a situation where you'll win easily with the push of a button, or simply die quickly when nothing is left.

The buy menus are a little cluttered / uncategorised.

The Goal:
Make thief loadouts truly modular / customisable. Thieves have more starting loot, and can decide whether they want a blackjack or more stealth equipment instead, and other such choices empowering a player in the manner in which they prefer to approach the game. This way you can be a more powerful DMer or Ghoster.


Our Proposal:
Have very few unchangeable items in the loadout. Thieves start with 900 loot, and can choose their tools accordingly from vine and water to blackjack or sword. The default installation will have 2 or 3 suggested loadouts for new players that can be overwritten. We'll come up with a proposed list of item prices shortly.

The new Thief loadout menu will be split into:
Weapons - sword, blackjack
Primary Potions - speed, invis (maximum 3 across this category)
Secondary Potions - health, cat, breath (maximum 5 across this category)
Arrows - broadhead, water, vine, moss, decoy, crack, noise (no cap)
Items - lockpicks, flash (max 2), scouting orb, telescope, rations
Extra Life - Gem of Resurrection +5

New guard loadout menu:
Weapons - mace, sword, helmet
Bolts - tag, para/disrupt, fire, standard
Traps - whistler, mine, caltrops, repair tool
Potions - speed (max 2), health
Items - flares, telescope, rations

Having the potion class system means that even with increased starting loot thieves can't simply load up on power items. Rather, utility items will become more used to aid in tactical stealth. Mossing areas and using decoys to attack objectives will be more viable with an abundance of this equipment available.

Eventually we'll look to change thief potions to ALL be silent (minus health/breath). To offset the power of this, they will be unstackable - i.e. no more invisibility + catfall, or using speed and invis at the same time. Guards won't hear potions being quaffed, but they will either be able to see or hear thieves, making the experience more tense when you're looking for clues of an enemy presence.

Example new thief loadout:
2 invis, 1 speed = 300 loot
2 catfall, 2 health, 1 breath @ 50 each = 250 loot
1 flash = 100 loot
lockpicks @ 50 loot = 50 loot
2 moss @ 25 loot = 50 loot
2 vines @ 25 loot = 50 loot
5 water @ 20 each = 100 loot
Total: 900 loot

Example DM loadout:
sword = 200 loot
blackjack = 200 loot
1 speed = 100 loot
2 flash = 200 loot
5 broadheads @ 20 loot = 100 loot
2 health = 100 loot
Total: 900 loot

Additional sidenote: this system is predicated on having 100% lootdrop on thief death, and also allowing thieves to drop loot from their inventory to teammates. Those will be discussed in a further thread.
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Postby Gladius » Tue Dec 21, 2010 6:03 pm

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Postby shuggy » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:01 pm

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Postby Rodent » Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:15 pm

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Postby Effaraitsch » Wed Dec 22, 2010 7:02 pm

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Postby Dalai » Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:45 pm

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Postby Effaraitsch » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:10 pm

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Postby immortius » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:11 pm

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Postby Gladius » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:46 pm

Immort - Its good lateral thinking, but it would encourage thieves stalling to secure the spawn of their comrades. There would certainly be more 30 minute games.

Dalai - I'm not sure what the average game length is, but it would be a 5-30 minute (15min mean) until the next round. Thats if you have only the one life.
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Postby Rodent » Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:49 pm

Perhaps a one off mid round (15 minutes into the game) respawn wave where dead thieves are given a bare minimum of equipment and almost no starting money, and the chance to exhibit their quality!

Tying this in with the life gem purchasing system, perhaps thieves who purchased two lives straight up would not receive the benefit of the free spawn. Thieves that risked a single 900 loot life would get the equipless mid round respawn.

@ FRH: Just tack on TH-Breakout to every level D:
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Postby immortius » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:31 pm

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Postby Dalai » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:36 pm

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Postby shuggy » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:31 am

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Postby suibriel » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:44 pm

I think having a static 2 lives is a good idea, with the second life being significantly weaker.

----
Komandor gave .:m.rodent:. some unnecessary ventilation

2 minute forced delay

.:m.rodent:. stumbled back to the shadows (respawn)
(only 300 loot, enough for a couple of specific items - forcing thief to rely on stealth to make this life effective)
---

There's clearly a balance to be struck with a two-life system but as long as the second life forces the thief to rely on stealth I think it's worthwhile
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Postby immortius » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:10 pm

If you're going to reduce efficiency on second lives you should just have a fixed loadout, so that there's no issue with buying.
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Postby shuggy » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:27 pm

The idea would be that thieves can choose a loadout based on the situation in the second half of the map, and take the most appropriate powerful piece of equipment accordingly. With potentially minutes of time to sort it, and only having to choose between 1 - 3 items, I don't see that it's an issue.
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Postby suibriel » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:01 pm

I think Immort's hinting at the work required to change the actual loadout purchasing system - having a different amount of loot would break loadouts so there'd have to be some work put into that; a second tier of savable loadouts?

But if you're talking about a small amount of loot it probably would be implied that you should buy those items manually. If that's too complex/annoying, perhaps a set of pre-made loadouts could be presented upon second spawn. Ghost, Support, Fierce, etc.

Couple of issues I see with this system are;

- To spectate aren't you team swapped to rat-team? Will it be easy to change back to Thief team without having to reconnect?
- If there is a timed delay on second life, what would happen if there's only 1:45 left on the clock? Will everyone have to wait it out? Can there be a "tap out" feature?
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Postby shuggy » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:55 pm

Yeah, I think you'd have to lock jailed thieves to their own team for spectating purposes, otherwise they gain too much information about objective locations or guarding placements.

Here's how I envisage a jail-release system:

Every thief starts with the same loot count on intial spawn, and there is no option to purchase a second life. You buy your loadout subject to our primary/secondary equipment restrictions listed in the second post, and go about your business.

Thieves can now drop each other loot bags, they'll be selectable in inventory. If they're dropped and left, they'll respawn after x minutes. This forces them to be carried about and therefore into harm's way, rather than stashed so the thief team incursions have less pressure on them. Loot drop on death will be forced to 100%.

If killed before the halfway mark of the game, a thief is jailed and can only watch his teammates until the halfway point of the game is reached. During this time he selects the 1 primary piece of equipment and 2 secondary pieces of equipment that he may take with his default second life loadout (say 4 water, 2 vine, 3 broadheads - obviously the exact system will need some fleshing out).

If a thief has accumulated a lot of loot or a major objective (major objectives must be carried about or they'll respawn after x minutes), or has lots of equipment left, he'll probably opt to stay alive past the midpoint instead of a 'win or respawn' high risk strategy. As a bonus, he'll receive some sort of extra equipment (probably not much). Guards could also receive some sort of reinforcement equipment, to be determined.

In a thirty minute round, the 'jail release' occurs in the 15th minute. Players who survived past this point will also receive their reinforcement equipment at that time. Then the game recommences.

If all thieves are eliminated before the halfway point of a match, a sever setting will determine if guards win outright on the spot, or the jail release occurs immediately.

Positives of this system:
- It's an organic system for thieves taking 1 or 2 lives depending in the circumstances
- You create guaranteed excitement midgame for guards, creating a nice game flow with hard attacks at the start of the game, the middle, and the end
- Players who are eliminated early don't have to sit on their arse for 29 minutes. The worst you'll ever have is around a 14 minute wait
- It introduces a strategic element to the lives system, and prevents overwhelming thief DM power by delayed spawns - there's a decision to be made about saving your equipment for the second half, or taking the second (but less powerful) life

Negatives:
- Could be some confusion with the secondary loadout / reinforcement equipment system
- ?
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Postby immortius » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:23 pm

Perhaps when a thief dies, their life can be tied to the loot they drop and that respawns from that. Upon a teammate collecting a piece of that loot they can become unjailed.
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